I followed the link to the Pixel 9 bug/exploit and saw this:
"Over the past few years, several AI-powered features have been added to mobile phones that allow users to better search and understand their messages. One effect of this change is increased 0-click attack surface, as efficient analysis often requires message media to be decoded before the message is opened by the user"
Haven't we learned our lesson on this? Don't read and act on my sms messages without me asking you to!
Even that's not sufficient. Consider an email client that doesn't parse images until you interact with the message. So you click on it, realize it's dodgy, but it's too late now because all the complex bug prone machinery has already been triggered.
Or my favorite, I marked an extremely suspicious message with what was almost certainly a malicious attachment as junk in a certain BigTech webmail client (the only other option was phishing which it most certainly was not) and it "helpfully" opened the unsubscribe link in my local browser without first asking me for permission. It's difficult to imagine the level of incompetence and dysfunction required to not only write but review, approve, and deploy such a feature in a security and privacy sensitive context.
Rather than tracking cookies it's a form of delivery confirmation via unique url. One of the mitigations is to configure the server to unconditionally fetch (and retain) all embedded media immediately on receipt of the message. Which makes the BigTech example all the more egregious.
Why are you withholding the name of the webmail provider?
Literally the only thing even remotely pressuring these firms to implement better security is bad PR (and it barely does that), so by not being explicit you are bypassing this
What is the purported lesson we should have learned? Users choose phones with rich messaging features. This was a major selling point for iPhone, first, with iMessage, and later with Android until iOS caught up with RCS.
One of the things Apple's Lockdown mode does is disable previews of images or links that are sent to you.
It seems like the lesson is that you shouldn't be processing data sent to the device by random strangers without the user explicitly choosing to open the file or follow the link.
That should be the default behavior, not a special lock down option that also disables other features.
Why can't they just make it like most email clients? No preview by default, give a banner with an option to explicitly allow a preview for that specific message or conversation?
No such thing as completely idiot proof. But I think we can all agree an exploit that requires a click is a lot better for the intended victim than one that doesn't. This way they at least have a chance to not click it. Then we can start tackling the other problems with separate solutions
Since it's a pure function, you can even keep using the legacy C code while still putting it in a sandbox: compile to WASM, then AOT transform to native code, and now it runs in the WASM sandbox at practically-native speed.
The thing is, nobody's happy just previewing jpegs and pngs.
Before you know it, people want to preview SVGs, PDFs, video, HTML and so on.
And to do that properly means you've got to support obscure formats like JBIG2 and CCITT Fax. Malicious vector images with a billion elements to render. XML that lets one file embed another.
And good luck getting the budget to re-implement them all from scratch in a better language, when the only business value the feature delivers is a postage-stamp-sized preview image.
Most of these are solved problems to one degree or another. Web browsers have generally switched over to decoding legacy unsafe formats like PDF using safe managed languages, typically JavaScript.
> JBIG2 and CCITT Fax
Since performance isn't such a critical concern with obscure legacy formats, it really wouldn't be much more than a day or two of work for a competent developer with AI agent tooling to convert an existing decoder to safe Rust.
Meta set nearly a hundred billion dollars on fire for a total failure that everybody saw coming, a trillion dollars is what the current AI investment crazy is pouring into concrete and TSMC chips, but... a couple of days for a developer is asking too much!?
> legacy unsafe formats like PDF using safe managed languages, typically JavaScript.
Are you ironic? If any JS and v8 have tons of CVE's.
Stop being deluded with these hip languages. Rust? you wish.
Maybe inferno with proper namespaces AND in-kernel namespace support.
No, not like Linux. LIke 9front.
Where are users being given an actual choice? There is no option for "iphone without these features", and I would wager that it has 0 bearing on anyone's decision to purchase a new iphone
The subtle lesson, which we won't learn is [astronaut meme] all communication is potentially remote code execution. This isn't a computer thing, it's in the inherent nature of how communication works for us too. You can be more or less careful, but you can't eliminate the problem entirely or else communicating ceases to be effective.
We all go through that stupid phishing training. They give us a list of red flags to help determine if an email is legit.
Then the next day, the CTO sends out an email that says IMPORTANT and the only text body says PLEASE READ THE ATTACHED .DOCX FILE. This is exactly what we were just trained not to open, but its from some exempt C-level who didn't have time to take the training, and all he is now doing is training the employees to open mails that look like phishing.
Google owns Android. Google does not care about you or other users. Their customers are ads publishers. 0days does not matter for them! Because there is hardly one alternative: iphone (and Huawei, but maybe not everywhere). Not much to care about.
We all need a new phone OS and hardware level. Urgently.
This does not make much sense at all and is also not in line with empirics. It does not make much sense, because if flagship Android's security reputation worsens, more high-value customers (which are interesting to ad publishers) will go to iPhone. I think this is already an issue for Google because the most popular iPhones are all flagship models, whereas the most popular Android models are low- to mid-range Samsung A series:
This reduces the opportunity for Google to extract money from their ecosystem (Ads, Google One, etc.) and gives it to Apple.
Second, it does not line up with empirics, because after Apple, Google has been the manufacturers most aggressively pushing hardware security. E.g. Pixels have had a Titan M secure enclave for a long time now (most Android manufacturers do not have any and rely on TrustZone), Google Pixel was one of the first devices to adopt memory tagging (MTE), etc. They do a lot of work to try to reduce the blast radius of 0-days, there is a reason why e.g. GrapheneOS has so far only supported Google Pixel devices.
Getting users to open a message isn’t a terribly high bar.
As a user I would not find it acceptable if needed to be careful with which message I open.
We tried putting the responsibility on the user with email attachments and I think it’s fair to say it’s been a disaster.
Malicious attachments are probably the most important distribution vector for malware.
This isn't even an exploit if the crappy AI or whatever that's trying to do something fancy never "processes" the message. At least give me a choice before you automatically do that
ESPECIALLY when we're trying to be concious about the amount of resource that "AI" uses. I don't need to burn GPU cycles on something I can read with my own eyes.
I don't know if that is the right lesson. It's kind of like "don't click on links"... Err, no. You should be able to click any link without getting hacked.
I have always found the whole "Don't trust links" a faux-pax when it comes to user training. As it just means that the failure to secure systems in the first place has already failed.....
It's worse, often the saying goes "don't click on suspicious links"/"don't open suspicious attachments". If I (target of such hint) knew the link was "suspicious" I wouldn't click it! Users are not opening suspicious attachments, they open (what they think is) important invoice or message from their boss.
"Don't click on links" is not a solution, and it's not something people actually do, it's just something they think they do.
Corporate Security will tell you that it's ok to click links to the payroll system or hr or vanta or the 'secure email service' or jira or github or to docusign or the microsoft office document that a partner company sent you or an amazon delivery notification, but not ok to click links in the phishing email that looks exactly like one of those that they sent you.
It's not possible to tell whether a message giving you a link to something is 'sketchy' or not before clicking the link, and any 'security' that relies on people knowing whether a message is malicious or not by magic is broken in the real world.
>It's not possible to tell whether a message giving you a link to something is 'sketchy' or not before clicking the link
Sure it is. It's just not something the average user can do. But what makes the situation worse is that most emails now use click tracking, so ALL links are sketchy. For example, emails from my union all link to 2mv.aplink.red and are 200 characters long and look like /dev/urandom output. No fucking idea what or who controls that domain, but it for sure is not my union. I've complained multiple times, including acting dumb and asking if they've been hacked because their email look shady as hell.
Email with the unsubscribe link wrapped in click tracking gets sent straight to SpamCop. I hate tech more and more every day.
In my company I regularly see genuine, legitimate emails that carry several huge red flags, like these conveyed to us on trainings.
If I can plausibly claim I wasn't sure it was legit (ie it was sent from the outside form the sketchy looking host), I'd always report it internally as phishing attempt. Just to make the security work with it.
There's also something about "admin" and "HR" systems in companies where they ignore everything they told you not to do.
I don't think I've worked anywhere yet that does 2FA, SSO, or even a vaguely usable system that doesn't look like it was made 30 years ago in these departments.
Which is extra troubling as these systems are the ones with the PII!
If the solution you're suggesting is not a solution, then the solution I suggested (which is a solution) seems to be the best one we have at the moment.
I was at an "AI Security" talk recently, that centred around "While we blindly will injest inputs to and from AI, and that's a security issue. There's nothing we can do, so just deal with the aftermath".
Including saying "If a threat actor updates your internal documentation, they can use that to influence the AI".
If a THREAT ACTOR IS UPDATING DOCUMENTATION, YOU'RE COMPROMISE!
A "threat actor" can be a company employee who is intentionally permitted to update internal documentation, but not intentionally permitted to change the behavior of an LLM whose context window includes that documentation.
I think it's reasonable for a security conference to talk about how if you put the internal documentation in the LLM context, that means you're elevating the permissions of anyone who can edit the documentation by transitively giving them the ability to instruct the LLM in its "actions" (outputs).
While it should be obvious that's what you're doing, I would say most people I talk to about LLMs do not understand that all parts of the context window together shape LLM output, and there is no such thing as "only obey instructions from the system prompt".
> Don't read and act on my sms messages without me asking you to!
Doesn't that just turn a 0-click exploit into a 1-click exploit? It's unlikely the user can make an informed decision to not process a potentially malicious message, without clicking on the message.
"This is notably fast given that this is the first time that an Android driver bug I reported was patched within 90 days of the vendor first learning about the vulnerability."
This makes me feel better about Google, but also makes me kind of frightened of the rest of Android. I wonder what Apple's response time is?
Android vendors have been notorious about updates for a long time. Part of that is supposedly because all of the phone companies want to distinguish themselves from each other, and so they all want to fork the default Android UI so they can offer some psychedelic UI vision with some brand-specific features. But that means that when an update to stock Android comes out, it's a lot of work to migrate.
I don't think Android UI customization is the main issue. Many vendors are not even able to keep device firmware and Linux kernels in sync. Qualcomm and others are doing monthly bulletins:
Since a lot of vendors are months or even years behind, their phones are full of known holes.
When it comes to security, basically: GrapheneOS > iOS > PixelOS >> Samsung OneUI >>>>>>>> everybody else.
Sadly, Samsung lets anyone who pays enough push bloatware and analytics on their phones. E.g. AppCloud from an Isreali company, Meta services that stay even when you remove Meta apps (only removable with ADB/UAD), etc. So there are only three somewhat serious options (and for two of them, you still give a lot of analytics to Apple or Google).
they aren't, but they often push kernel/system patches faster than Google. they also have more kernel hardening in place, which makes some classes of exploits ineffective.
mainly by only supporting devices with consistent fast fw updates (which is how pixelos is also on the list)(samsung is also mostly on top of their shit but multiple security features are unavailable to third party operating systems so unviable)
I've reported security bugs to Apple before. Was a couple years back but I remember it taking around 6 months to patch (there was a couple back and forth for me to get a more reliable POC). Maybe 2 months from when I submitted a POC with 100% reproducibility
Not sure how much it helps, but I just run all my Apple devices in "Lockdown mode", don't install apps (use Safari), and try to mostly use Safari in private sandboxed mode.
I turned it on a week ago to see what it was like. I expected it to be significantly annoying, but I found basically nothing changed other than a bit of text in safari that says it's in lockdown mode. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to to tell the modes apart. I was expecting the browser to be slower without JIT or use more battery but I haven't noticed any change, it's all still snappy.
Apple over hypes the "you need to be in significant danger" part. Basically anyone can turn this on and it's fine. The UX seems mostly exactly the same either way.
It basically degrades back to SMS if you turn this on. Obviously, this is fine for a lot of things, but most people generally expect more than that out of their messaging app in this day and age.
I thought it was common knowledge that all kinds of Americans (not to mention other nations) are routinely compromised with zero-clicks, mostly developed in the US and Israel.
This is the kind of assertion without evidence that just muddies the waters. “All kinds” of people is so vague as to be an almost entirely vacuous category and “routine” means almost nothing without an actual quantification of how prevalent and frequent the problem is.
It’s undeniable that the proverbial guns for hire make it easy (if not cheap) to target basically anyone — but just because the vibes are bad doesn’t mean we can just say “it’s common knowledge that …”
The fact is mitigations are costly in terms of convenience and ease of use. Helping people make informed choices about whether to enable mitigations and bear that cost requires more than platitudes imo
LARPing is imagining that Lockdown mode protects you from state-level actors. It is frankly baffling why a industry that has been laughing for literal decades at even the possibility of stopping state-level actors just turns around and uncritically believes Apple's marketing team with literally zero support, evidence or proof except for a long track record of failure. You would think that extraordinary claims would demand extraordinary evidence.
We have seen multiple software hacks resulting in >10 million dollar payouts. Apple's bug bounty program only pays out 4 million dollars (2 million dollars (2x) more than non-Lockdown) for a zero-click total compromise that can trivially worm to take down hundreds of millions of iPhones simultaneously. Even at the low end of that cyberattack payout range that is still a >2x ROI if your successful cyberattack depends on a iPhone zero-click, with many publicly known attacks being in the 10x ROI range. Lockdown mode, at best, raises the bar slightly for commercial profit-motivated attackers and reduces their profit margin from wildly profitable to slightly less, but still, wildly profitable.
And of course I am using the Apple bug bounty program as merely a available metric with at least some semblance of objective support. There are zero certifications, audits, or analysis that Apple has even attempted that would confirm any claim of protection against state level actors.
I strongly disagree that there is no evidence that Lockdown mode is effective; there have been numerous exposed, active iOS exploitation campaigns of which none have worked against Lockdown mode. When we're trying to prove a negative, that's actually some of the strongest evidence we can get.
The economics of the device exploitation industry are completely orthogonal from bug bounty payouts; the markets only overlap at the _extreme_ fringes. Trying to use one as a proxy for the other is meaningless.
In this case the body of evidence is still quite powerful though, given that not only do we not have any forensic evidence of compromise from a phone with Lockdown Mode, but in all public cases where chains were RE'd back out of the forensic evidence, they don't work when tested on Lockdown Mode! So, there's even signal that the lack of forensics indicating Lockdown Mode compromises is not due to artificial targeting or detonation gates, but rather successful mitigation.
(as an aside): I'm not trying to say Lockdown Mode is infallible; I am sure phones in Lockdown Mode are or will be compromised. But it's clearly a very powerful tool, and to try to argue that it is some kind of marketing-driven conspiracy, against the body of evidence of its success, using bug bounty payout numbers (???), as the grandparent post did, is ridiculous.
That is a total strawman. The standard of “effective” being used by the person I was responding to and Apple themselves is “protects against state actors targeting you”, not “has any benefit whatsoever” or even “has a material benefit”.
Protecting against state actors is not a instantaneous property of the present. It demands durable protection against compromise by state actors who can easily spend tens to hundreds of millions of dollars on teams of hundreds for multiple years to develop novel, durable exploits known only to them. To the extent that compromises exist, they would require expected resource expenditure in excess of what state actors can deploy or are in excess of the value derivable by state actors which is going to be in the hundreds of millions to billions of dollar range to constitute as being "effective against state actors targeting you".
Protecting against state actors means secure against Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, and the NSA. That is the unsupported marketing bullshit I am calling out.
I said that “protects against state actors” means the cost of finding a exploit as generally applicable and powerful as a zero-click RCE needs to cost on the order of hundreds of millions to billions of dollars per exploit to be problematic for state actors to field.
That amount of resources is a competent team of 100 skilled individuals finding zero zero-click RCEs after 3 years of full time investigation. That could credibly be called secure against state actors, though would still not be out of reach of a real military operation as a hundred million dollars is still just the cost of a single jet fighter.
> We have seen multiple software hacks resulting in >10 million dollar payouts
This sets a nice price bar for exploitation. Is someone willing to pay 10+ million dollars to get access to your phone?
The obvious caveat here is that for a lot less than 10 million dollars someone can be hired to hit you with a metal pipe until you give up your passcode.
> click total compromise that can trivially worm to take down hundreds of millions of iPhones simultaneously
Where is the profit motive in doing this? Possibility is one thing, but a realistic threat is another.
Is someone willing to pay 10+ million dollars to get access to your phone?
Not yours specifically usually, but there is a lot of money in a general tool that law enforcement can use to read out phones. Of course, most of them focus on physical access. In the few Cellebrite reports/presentations that have leaked, iPhones would fall after a relatively short time (IIRC a few months), but did better than most Android phones (except GrapheneOS).
Also, sometimes you do not need the 10M exploit, you can buy many cheaper exploits and make a chain yourself.
The obvious caveat here is that for a lot less than 10 million dollars someone can be hired to hit you with a metal pipe until you give up your passcode
If they hit you with a metal pipe, it's likely that you won't survive even if you give up your passcode. So most likely you are protecting something or someone else. Set up a duress PIN so that you have options in that case.
... really? Zero-click RCEs can be used on arbitrarily many phones until they are discovered which usually takes on the order of months. You do not need to burn them on every individual target.
As a example of how they might be used in that fashion for profit, NSO group had a revenue of 240 million dollars in 2020. Many of their customers were governments who wanted to spy on activists and journalists. NSO group was in the business of economies of scale to democratize access to journalist devices by reusing a small stockpile of exploits across many targets with enough revenue to assure a steady stream of new exploits as fast as they were burned.
You’re right, I misstated. It’s not 10 million per exploitation, it instead limits the pool of people who can exploit you to those willing and have the ability to spend 10 million+ on an exploit.
That is still quite a small pool, and there are other network effects preventing any Joe blogs with that much capital from launching an exploitation campaign.
Again, no. You do not need to spend 10 million on a exploit if you are working with a company like NSO Group who sells white-glove access to target individual as a service. The cost lower bound is going to be on the order of ((cost of exploit) / (number of times exploit can be used)) and the denominator there is going to easily be in the hundreds to thousands. Of course prices are likely to be higher than the minimum due to profit margins.
To, once again, use the same example of NSO Group as it is infamous and well-documented [1]. In 2016 it was 500,000 $ upfront and 650,000 $/year for 10 devices. That article claims Saudi Arabia was monitoring 15,000 phones at a average cost of 10,000 $/phone. In [2] it was 7 million $ for 15 devices, but the upfront versus marginal cost per device is not broken down. And this was a relatively "above-board" company in the sense that they were a legitimate business entity with government deals which commands a premium relative to random unknown blackhat organization with no reputation.
And again, my original comment was discussing commercial profit-motivated attackers for which 1 million $ is easily within reach and just a cost of doing business to unlock greater amounts of profit. That is less than the cost of setting up a McDonalds. There is a vast, vast gap spanning factors of millions between Joe Schmo and commercial actors and a even vaster gap to state actors. There is no evidence that Lockdown mode is adequate against even commercial actors, let alone the vastly more capable state actors.
"If you’re not then this seems quite paranoid, bordering on LARPing."
There are sooooooo many other situations where such device lockdown is warranted. Government intrusion, sensitive industry, journalism, anything ITAR/EAR covered, and more. Your reduction to a single issue is absurd.
No, just keep the usual tax/finacial/health data on my devices.
I consider Anthropic's Mythros security bug finder mostly marketing, but other things worry me that there might be a global hack contagion: for example, a few months ago I saw in the news that an executive at a US security company was caught selling information to a hacking group.
Except for disabled Javascript compilation possibly slowing down web sites, not getting some attachments in messages, and some graphics not showing up on some web sites, having Lockdown mode set doesn't seem to affect anything I do. For dev I use VPSs with ssh set for ensuring SSH agent forwarding is strictly disabled, as are reverse tunnels.
It seems like doing little things like this make sense because it is such a tiny hassle to be a little safer.
For the most part "AI Exploit Research" is just lots of automated fuzzing. It's nothing new, it just takes time, and they're just throwing a lot of CPU/GPU at that
Given that 42% of Android devices are unpatched as of now [1] it's an interesting decision on their part to release their research and make them all vulnerable
That's perennially the case. A big portion of the world buys bargain-basement android devices that are unsupported right out of the box.
Search "android phone" on aliexpress and there's top selling phones on the first page running android 8, android 10, etc. They're not getting security updates of any sort, let alone driver updates.
It frustrates me no end that there's so many fly-by-night Android phones available from China. But with zero way to change the software on them. It's not even like they're running weird chips either.
It would be nice to find one where the bootloader is unlockable, and you can just build a standard Android image and flash it..
The old way of keeping security bugs private is just completely broken now. If you aren't on a device that gets security updates you are in significant danger, regardless of what Google decides to publish. No name hackers are sitting on stacks of exploits these days and are actively using them.
"Over the past few years, several AI-powered features have been added to mobile phones that allow users to better search and understand their messages. One effect of this change is increased 0-click attack surface, as efficient analysis often requires message media to be decoded before the message is opened by the user"
Haven't we learned our lesson on this? Don't read and act on my sms messages without me asking you to!