Interesting perspective. Your first paragraph also describes my experience, perfectly.
However, even though I also think nothing comes even close to parenthood for me, my perspective is that society strongly encourages —I'd even say strongly pressures— people to have kids, to feel that if you don't, it's almost like something is wrong with you. Maybe we're just different generations? :-)
I never felt that pressure to have kids. In fact, even though I waited until I was in my mid 30's, I was the first in my social circle to have kids (I guess I hung around with younger people?).
I knew since I was a kid myself that I wanted to someday be a father. If society pushed me, it would have been when I was still in elementary school.
After I had kids though… It was strange to scroll through coworkers social media feeds and see the same photos of groups of 30-somethings holding up wine glasses while the waiter (I assume) takes their photo at some fancy restaurant in the Bay Area. It all seemed so… hedonistic? Or maybe just kind of empty.
Becoming a father gave me purpose that was (finally) not about me any longer.
And now, the nest empty, I still am unable to go back to that person I was before. (Whoever that was.)
I live in a neighborhood of older retired folks and I get this vibe from them as well when walking my younger kids. Their faces light up with joy. Just another season in life I suppose. Let's enjoy it while we can.
Yeah, speaking as a female-bodied person here - undoubtedly a minority on this site - I absolutely feel the pressure to have children in society, pretty much every day.
Look at the "birth rate" discourse that's been going on. There's tremendous pressure on women to have more babies. There's also a lot of pendulum-swinging in the opposite direction with your edgy "antinatalists", in some sort of weird "overcorrection" or some such, but ultimately those voices are much louder online than in real life.
Fewer people are reproducing, but that doesn't mean the pressures to do so aren't still there. "It's complicated."
This onslaught of birth rate articles laying the blame at women's feet drives me up a wall. Many of my female peers have frozen their eggs to preserve their ability to have children to the best of their abilities or have undergone fertility evaluations proactively, other female friends in their 30s/40s have pursued the single-mom-by-choice route once they had the financial security to do so. I do not see my male peers pursuing sperm testing / freezing or pursuing single-fatherhood-by-choice. Of my married friends with kids, if there is a second kid it has been because the wife advocated for it. All that said, I don't blame men either the husbands that were talked into the second kid were all concerned about their ability to pay for school / daycare and/or to afford another bedroom even with the help of their working wives / breadwinner wives. For men talked into their first kid, their hesitation was that after undergraduate and masters they felt they'd barely had time to financially establish themselves or live their own lives.
Not to mention the evidence coming out about advanced paternal age and adverse outcomes on offspring. The pressures are definitely lopsided. If anything, the pressures should be on society and institutions to provide more support for parents, people who want to become parents, and people who just want to be part of "the village". So... support for people, I suppose. A rising tide lifts all boats. Something like that. I dunno. There's a lot of factors at play here; I'm just spitballing.
Does the birth rate discourse put pressure on you as an individual? I had expected that to also be more of an online than real life push.
There is more pressure on women to have kids than on men. That is not new. What is new is a more negative attitude to children and parenting in society in general. Do you feel there are conflicting pressures now?
>Does the birth rate discourse put pressure on you as an individual?
Implicitly, I think, yes. It builds on all of the other social pressures, big and small. I'm sure an entire humanities thesis could be written about how it all adds up over time.
I wrote another comment elsewhere in the thread talking about polarized opinions broadcasted on social media and how that also adds to the stress of it all. Nobody ever wants to talk about the "it was/is... fine, actually. kind of whatever. not great, but not horrible." possibility of pregnancy (and parenthood). It's always either the most wonderful, miraculous thing ever and you're insane for not wanting it, or it's the most horrible, irreversibly damaging thing ever and you're insane for wanting it.
And the thing is... it COULD be any of those outcomes! It could ruin your life. It could also make your life so much more fulfilling. There's simply no way to know for sure what it will be like for you without doing it. It is an enormous gamble, especially when you are the person who has to endure the pregnancy, and it is a gamble that you can't really walk away from. (Of course, you can give a child up for adoption, but there's a lot of social shame involved in that, especially if it is a wanted child that you're quite literally giving up on rearing.)
I think the other comment was in answer to me too.
I think you are right about the polarised opinions. I think in real life (at least for people I know) pregnancy is generally fine, with maybe a few horrible bits (i.e. if there are any medical problems/something goes wrong). It has lots of positives but its difficult.
Parenthood is usually wonderful. I am afraid men have it easier as we get the parenthood without the pregnancy!
It also depends on your social and professional background. If you are an orthodox jew, you will likely have the maximum pressure.
On the other hand, my wife, who was a lawyer, was fired from from a Big4 when they suspected that she was pregnant.
As a father in the tech/startup industry, it's sometimes quite hard to get people to understand what having children implies for instance, my ex-boss couldn't understand that I wasn't available at 21:30 everyday to answer his questions, as I was bedding the kids.
I mean, humans are made to comply to social pressure, so if they stop collectively having children, it more likely means that the social and economic pressure is overall rather against having them.
I think it's social pressure in some cultures, but even in those (sub)cultures which don't have the explicit pressure to have kids, people have a drive to procreate. I cannot tell you how many couples I know who decided they would not have kids, or would only have one, and at a certain point one partner (usually a woman in their late 30s or early 40s if I am being honest) decided this was the most important thing and no amount of money or career setbacks or relationship turmoil wouldn stand in the way.
Different generations, different places, exactly where you are in your society, religious influences, your immediate social circle, how much time you spend on social media....
Certainly in the UK there is a group of people who have become very negative about having kids, partly because they are scared of the expense, and partly because society makes it look so hard, and partly because they genuinely have less support.
Pregnancy is also a really scary prospect for a lot of people (myself included), and there doesn't seem to be much work done in trying to make it, well, less shitty of an experience. "It's just how it is," but... is it really? Does it really need to be so bad?
Not to mention that "it takes a village", but in many places the village has been basically stolen from us.
Pregnancy is never going to be easy (and its one part of parenting I am glad I did not have to do!) but it can definitely be made easier and more pleasant. it varies a lot though. We were quite lucky in many ways.
However, why is pregnancy scarier than it used to be when it is safer than it has ever been? It seems to be more scary in developed countries than in poor ones too.
I wonder whether the loss of the "village" might be part of the reason for this. it certainly is for a lot of other things around having kids.
I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that birth control offers us a choice in the matter. Pregnancy used to be something You Just Did, because, well, most people enjoy having sex, and pregnancy is the intended consequence of unprotected sex. It's scary, it's stressful, it's risky, and it's sometimes even fatal... but it's "part of life". It's how we ended up here, after all.
Now we have a choice. Which is GREAT, amazing, even. Absolutely necessary. I'll never argue that anyone's right to choose if they want to be a parent is a bad thing.
I wonder if social media is also contributing, with its polarizing nature. It's rare you see any opinions or even anecdotes about pregnancy being "fine" or "whatever". It's always a big deal, and it's always a big deal (horrible) or a big deal (wonderful). There's not a lot of in between. The negative end of the spectrum scares people, while the positive end of the spectrum is met with skepticism since it's too-often (for me at least) correlated with right-wing religious people trying to push women to be what're effectively baby factories, so the "it's the most wonderful experience ever!" just comes off as disingenuous and manipulative.
Combined with the fact that women's healthcare is rife with challenges, and women's pain is often dismissed (not looking to start any "gender wars" arguments; just stating things that can be backed up https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10937548/), the prospect of becoming pregnant is a scary one, when you have the option to not do that.
"What if it's nine months of constant nausea, being bedbound, gaining weight I'll never be able to lose? My body will change, in many ways irreversibly. Will my partner still find me attractive? Will they support me during? Will they support me after? Will I feel supported? Will I feel resentment that they'll be able to enjoy things like alcohol while I'll have to stay completely sober for a very long time? Will I feel resentment if the majority of childcare falls on me, which is statistically actually quite likely? What about my career? Will I regret it? What if my child is born with a disability? What if I'm bad at being a mom? What if I hate it? What if I'm trapped in a life I don't want? What if there's no way out?"
Of course, the above thought process could also be one with thoughts like "what if it's wonderful?" but it's a lot easier to worry about the negative, and put weight on the negative, than it is to fantasize and put weight on the positive what-ifs.
This is just my perspective, though. Some people love being pregnant and find parenthood really wonderful (or so they tell me about those things), and I love that for them. Truly. I'm just not sure if I have it in me to ever find out what it would be like for me, and I know I'm not alone. Fun Auntie is a better role for me I think. But maybe I would feel differently if pregnancy were easier and a less destructive process on the female body, and there was more social support for parents.
Birth control has been around for a long time now. The oral contraceptive pill was invented 70 years ago. Fear of pregnancy to the level of putting people off having kids is much newer.
I think its very likely that social media plays apart.
I think people glossing pregnancy over as wonderful are optimistic. I think a more honest take is "its hard but worth it".
> What if it's nine months of constant nausea, being bedbound, gaining weight I'll never be able to lose?
Its not nine months of nausea or being bedbound though. Most women I know lived normal lives for most of their pregnancies.
> Will my partner still find me attractive? Will they support me during? Will they support me after? Will I feel supported
Absolutely do not have kids with a partner whose support you cannot rely on!
None of us are going to keep our looks all our lives anyway.
> Will I feel resentment that they'll be able to enjoy things like alcohol while I'll have to stay completely sober for a very long time?
When i had my kids the NHS advice was to drink in moderation. Changes since then have been politically driven (and by increased American influence on attitudes) rather than being the rest of any new science. My ex went off alcohol before she knew she was pregnant (which is the most critical time) and then drank moderately thereafter.
> Will I feel resentment if the majority of childcare falls on me, which is statistically actually quite likely?
That is understandable. Again it partly comes down to having the right partner. Some men do end up doing the majority of childcare - I am one, and I have come across a few others. This is something that is improving too (I hope!).
> What about my career? Will I regret it? What if my child is born with a disability?
Careers get into perspective when you have kids. Very few people regret having their kids, whatever goes wrong. They are so much more important than having a career. I have a lot less money than I would have had without kids, but there is no way I would want to have the money instead.
> What if I'm bad at being a mom? What if I hate it? What if I'm trapped in a life I don't want?
IMO it is extremely rare for the sort of person who worries about being a good parent to be a bad parent. The problem is that people want to be perfect parents, and society encourages anxiety instead of reassuring them that it is OK not to be perfect.
> Fun Auntie is a better role for me I think
Its not a bad role to have! I would point out that being a fun auntie requires someone to have kids!
> and there was more social support for parents.
I think this is critical. I am not sure to what extent pregnancy can be made easier in a direct physical sense, but many women could be better supported through it.
All valid responses/pushback to the anxiety! It's still a lot of unknowns and what-ifs; I was more trying to make the point that for some people, it's overwhelming, and some may conclude it's not worth the risk in finding out. Which brings me to another important point, which is that parenthood isn't for everybody. Some people really shouldn't be parents, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. (Not saying I'm necessarily one of those people; just speaking more generally.)
Unfortunately - and this is kinda related to your comment about it being rare for the kind of person who worries about being a good parent to be a really bad parent - we often see opposite patterns play out... people that would probably make good parents seem less likely to reproduce, and vice versa. I know "Idiocracy" is a bit of a meme these days and is arguably classist, but I can't help but think about it. It's probably a far larger socioeconomic issue than can be feasibly hashed out in an internet forum, and I certainly can't solve it.
Ultimately, I think where I'm at these days, is that we need the village back, and I would love to be a part of it. How? Well, currently, it's that "Fun Auntie" role, as I've no kids of my own, nor do I plan to change that. I've long "wanted to want" bio-children, but so far, I don't. I'm mid-30s now, so there is still time, especially thanks to fertility technology continuing to improve. I'm probably not gonna change my mind, but I'm far too autistic to speak in absolutes, so I cant 100% rule anything out.
Regardless: the village is a beautiful thing. It's an honor to be a part of it in the ways that I am and have been throughout my life. More people should be a part of it. We should all (within reason) be a part of it. It should be celebrated and supported each and every day, to the point where parenthood isn't so much of a burden on the individual family unit, and is instead a shared responsibility of the local community. How do we best go about doing that? Obviously governmental and institutional support is critical, but we also need societal/cultural support, and that will be a lengthier project... we owe it to ourselves to try, though.
I appreciate the conversation and insights in this conversation; thanks for the well-thought out responses in these threads.
I really appreciate how well you have explained a perspective very different from my own. Not only am I a man who has had children, my younger daughter turned 18 today, and will be off to university in less than two months so my children are no longer children and worries about parenting etc. are behind me.
Its interesting how much we agree about the social and political problems and the loss of the village.
However, even though I also think nothing comes even close to parenthood for me, my perspective is that society strongly encourages —I'd even say strongly pressures— people to have kids, to feel that if you don't, it's almost like something is wrong with you. Maybe we're just different generations? :-)